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An Interview with Elizabeth Andrews
Elizabeth Andrews and Gongyu (Jerry) Zhang
"...to me, being a citizen lawyer means being a leader in your life in all aspects, not just in your job 9 to 5, but in your community. And so working on real world projects that made a difference policy-wise was a great way to live out that aspiration to be a citizen lawyer." -- Elizabeth Andrews
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Elizabeth Andrews was interviewed on March 8, 2024, in the William & Mary Media Center’s production studio. She begins by describing how a love and respect for the natural world guided her towards public service work. She discusses her decision to attend law school and working in the Virginia Attorney General’s Office on environmental issues. Andrews then reflects on her time directing the Virginia Coastal Policy Clinic, the significance of the real-world policy experience for law students, collaborating on environmental projects, and advice for students interested in environmental law and policy. She ends the interview reflecting on the current state of environmental policy at all levels of government as well as her legacy more generally at William & Mary Law School.
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An Interview with Jayne Barnard
Jayne W. Barnard and Aidan Rossman
"But I think William & Mary Law School has got a huge number of very entrepreneurial students and faculty members who make things happen. And not because somebody told them it had to be done, but because they just decide that they'll do it." -- Jayne Barnard.
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This interview took place in the Reeder Media Center at William & Mary on April 27th, 2023, from 12:00 to 2:00 pm. It begins by discussing Barnard’s career prior to law school, and how there was a movement of women to law schools to find careers where they would be better recognized for their hard work. She discusses joining Jenner and Block, and what it meant for them to have women already working there. She discusses her return to government by working for the mayor of Chicago, Harold Washington, and how she “cleaned up” the law department. From there, she moves to how she came from Illinois to Virginia to join William & Mary faculty in 1985. Barnard then shares her many roles at the law school, from the classes she taught to being a faculty advisor for multiple journals. Through these roles, she highlights her commitment to supporting women, which is further revealed as she talks about her involvement in the ACLU, William & Mary’s Faculty Women’s Cause, and role as Coordinator of the 100th Anniversary of Women at William & Mary. She then discusses her work in corporations, business, and white-collar crime, coming to a head in her article about victim impact statements which helped in passing the Crime Victims’ Rights Act of 2004 and got her a seat in the courtroom during the Bernie Madoff case. The interview finishes with Barnard sharing a few different stories and comments about the general community and entrepreneurship of the students and faculty of William & Mary Law School.
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An Interview with Lynda Butler
Lynda L. Butler and Daniella Relvas-Veliadis
"This law school has a great community, with the students and with the faculty and with the faculty-student relations. You don't find that at a lot of law schools." -- Lynda Butler
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In this oral history, dated March 26, 2025, Professor Emerita and former Dean Lynda L. Butler gives us an overview of her 43 years of service to William & Mary Law School. Butler shares her experience as one of the first women to receive tenure at the law school, narrates the growth of environmental law from the 1980s to today, and speaks about her role managing the Brigham-Kanner Property Rights Conference for almost ten years. We gain perspective on the roles of Dean and Vice Dean at the law school—both positions Butler has held—and hear how the student body, admissions process, and student experience has evolved from the unique perspective of a long-term administrator. Butler’s devotion to professorship is demonstrated through her many scholarly publications and academic awards as discussed in the interview, and her passion for mentoring students shines through in her stories.
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An Interview with Stephanie and Michael Chu
Stephanie Rever Chu, Michael Chu, and Gongyu (Jerry) Zhang
"...we formed these amazing relationships in law school and throughout our careers... We're so in touch with so many people and I'm so thankful for that. It's enriched our lives, both of our lives so much." -- Mike Chu
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Stephanie and Michael Chu were interviewed on November 16, 2023, in William & Mary Media Center’s production studio. Navigating through their illustrious careers and personal journeys was made seamless by their attentiveness and quick-witted responses. Their shared experiences at William & Mary Law School, involvement in student publications, and subsequent impactful contributions to the legal and educational sectors unfolded with vivid anecdotes and insights. The interview was not just informative but also infused with a light-hearted spirit, as jokes flowed effortlessly between the two.
They begin by describing their upbringing and how they came to W&M for law school. They discuss the close-knit community and various activities in which they participated. They describe the difficulties associated with finding jobs after graduating and the importance of showing up to support their community. They reflect on the significance of building meaningful relationships and having opportunities for creativity in both your life and your career.
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An Interview with Judith M. Conti
Judith M. Conti and Aidan Rossman
"...there are many lawyers who look at the law as the limits of what they can do. And instead, I feel like my education taught me to think beyond the limits of what the law is and more about what the law should be and how we can achieve that kind of change." -- Judy Conti.
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This interview took place in the Reeder Media Center at William & Mary on March 8th, 2023, from 2:00 to 3:00 pm. The interview began with Conti discussing her Catholic and liberal upbringing which developed a strong need to give back through public service. She decided that she wanted to go to William & Mary’s Law School because it was a school based on community, rather than competition. She then discussed some of the professors and classes that had the largest impact on Conti as a student. Conti then shares why “Big Law” was not for her and how she knew public service was for her. Conti then covers the revival of the Women’s Law Society as a 1L, co-founding the Journal of Women and the Law, and Professor Jayne Barnard’s advice and encouragement for women in the legal field. Finally, Conti shares about her work after law school, describing cases that inspired her passion for labor and employment law and the co-founding of the DC Employment Justice Center. Conti concludes with remarks about how she continues to carry with her the William & Mary tradition of the citizen lawyer and emphasizing community.
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An Interview with Davison Douglas
Davison M. Douglas and Brendan Clark
"I sort of made a promise for myself. I'm going to make sure that I am connected with the students. And I know I have a busy job, and I know that a lot of deans don't do that... that became something, for the rest of my time when I was the dean, is I wanted to know who the students were. I wanted to connect with the students." -- Dave Douglas
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Douglas was interviewed in William & Mary’s Media Center on April 29, 2024. He began by discussing his academic career in history and religion, and how the lonely lifestyle pushed him to pursue law while he was finishing his doctorate. He described his love for teaching and his arrival at William & Mary Law School and spoke about the origins of his interest in civil rights law. Douglas then talked about the leadership roles he held while on the faculty, his transition to dean, and the changes in the law school’s facilities, faculty, and curriculum offerings. Throughout the interview, Douglas emphasized his love for working with students and how he strove to stay connected with them.
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An Interview with Mark Earley
Mark Earley Sr. and Daniella Relvas-Veliadis
"...in America, unless each generation has a recommitment to fundamental principles of freedom and liberty, we can lose what we have in a generation. And so I decided I wanted to be a part in my generation of trying to rekindle a passion and a commitment to those first freedoms that laid the foundation for America to be a great nation. So I wanted to go to law school and change the world."
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In this oral history, dated April 5, 2024, William & Mary Law alum Mark Earley, Sr. gives us an overview of his lengthy legal and political career, including snippets of his time in the Virginia State Senate and his former position as Attorney General of Virginia. He shares stories from his childhood, undergraduate years at William & Mary, and time working at a ministry in the Philippines prior to law school. We learn about how the composition of the Virginia State Senate shifted from 1988 until he left in 2001 and what the process of appointing a judge looks like in Virginia. Mark explains why his philosophy on the death penalty and tough-on-crime initiatives shifted from full support during his years as AG to outspoken opposition today. We also hear a touching story about the lasting connection he made with a Richmond elementary schooler through a mentorship lunch program for at-risk youth.
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An Interview with Alemante Gebre-Selassie
Alemante Gebre-Selassie and Gongyu (Jerry) Zhang
"So when I came here, I wrote back that experience of Law and Development as an important subject... We have to study the actual realities of a country, their culture, their geography, their history, their economic conditions, their social conditions before you propose some kind of recommendation to them." -- Alemante Gebre-Selassie
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The interview starts with Professor Selassie’s background and family. He was educated first as a law student at University of Haile Selassie in the 1960s, followed by a J.D. in UW-Madison. He discusses life prior to teaching at W&M and about his home country.
Professor Selassie emphasizes that the single most important value for the legal profession is dedication. He also stresses the importance of U.S legal scholars to respect regional differences and traditions of other countries before applying “universal” legal doctrines.
Professor Selassie stresses several times the importance of a closely-knit community of faculty members, which he believes has been diminished, possibly as a result of the global pandemic, during his years as emeritus faculty.
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An Interview with James Heller
James S. Heller and Daniella Relvas-Veliadis
"When you come to a fork in the road, take it."-- Jim Heller (and Yogi Berra)
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In this oral history, dated April 3, 2024, James “Jim” Heller gives us an overview of his long career in law librarianship, 31 years of which he spent as Director of the Wolf Law Library at William & Mary Law School. He shares insight into a number of defining moments throughout the law library’s history, including the development of the Digital History Display, the creation of the George Wythe Collection and Wythepedia, and the total renovation of the library in 2007. We learn about the lasting Jim-inspired hiring process at the law library, the history of his band, “Winslow Ridge,” and the amusing origin story of a life-size doll named Prudence who once roamed free across the library. Jim also shares touching memories about his friend and former colleague, the late Betta Marie Labanish, who devoted nearly 35 years of her life to William & Mary Law School.
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An Interview with Ingrid and Michael Hillinger
Ingrid Hillinger, Michael Hillinger, and Daniella Relvas-Veliadis
"...I mean, there are just many, many wonderful stories. We could not be more grateful to the law school for what they did for us, both as students and as teachers. And my sense is that that special quality, citizen lawyer, continues to this day, and that's something really important." -- Ingrid Hillinger
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In this oral history, dated February 23, 2024, Ingrid and Michael Hillinger gave us an overview of their many years of studies and service to William & Mary Law School. The subjects ranged from funny stories at “Libel Night,” an annual student-run comedy event from the ‘70s, to Ingrid’s journey becoming one of the first women at the law school to receive tenure status. We heard anecdotes about their favorite friends and peers from the administration as well as a timeline of the changes they noticed at the law school over the years, from the construction of the new building to a shift in students’ work-life balance.
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An Interview with W.C. Jefferson (part one)
W.C. Jefferson and Brendan Clark
"So what it is, is that we're not all born equal, but what we all should have is a chance to be the best we can be." -- Jeff Jefferson
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The first part of Jefferson’s oral history took place via Zoom on September 26, 2023. Jefferson started by discussing his undergraduate education at Central State in Ohio, where he participated in ROTC. Afterwards, he joined the army and completed two tours in Vietnam during the Vietnam War. He then discussed starting law school and how he balanced work and family during his 1L year. Jefferson described a meeting with then-Dean James Whyte, and the effort to recruit more Black students that resulted from it. The last bit of the interview touched on law school facilities, class and faculty, and the namesake of the Black Law Students Association (BLSA).
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An Interview with W.C. Jefferson (part two)
W.C. Jefferson and Kathryn Downing
The second part of Jefferson’s oral history interview took place in the Reeder Media Center on October 11, 2023, and covers Jefferson’s story post-graduation. After law school, Jefferson returned with his family to Ohio where he was dean of students at his alma mater, Central State University. He then described working as a public defender in Dayton, Ohio, particularly enjoying negotiation work. In coping with PTSD, Jefferson moved to Tucson, Arizona where became a contracts administrator for Hughes Aircraft. Jefferson then described taking a new position in Saudi Arabia, where he lived and worked for five years. Wanting to return to the US, Jefferson then took a position as a negotiator before taking up teaching, later returning to Saudi Arabia for his present job representing the business interests of a member of the Saudi royal family. The interview concluded with Jefferson describing lessons he learned from the law school and the legacy of the law school today.
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An Interview with Toni M. Massaro
Toni M. Massaro and Devan Orr
"Lucky, lucky, lucky." -- Toni M. Massaro
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Toni Massaro was interviewed in the production studio of the James E. Rogers College of Law, University of Arizona in Tucson, Arizona. It began at 1pm Arizona time and the interview went approximately one hour. During that time, Massaro covers her high school and college education and how she transitioned to law and why. She also discusses why she wanted to go to William & Mary, her relationships with her fellow students, relationships with faculty and academics, and her transition into practice. She also covers her teaching and deanship and how her time at William & Mary influenced that work.
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An Interview with Eileen A. Olds
Eileen A. Olds and Gongyu (Jerry) Zhang
"It's your job to speak up. And then it's also your job if you see things that don't... feel right, to address them in some way." -- Judge Eileen Olds
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Sharp, quick-witted, and carrying a solemn charm, Judge Olds shares a strong personal narrative portraying her life as one in which she incessantly pursues justice. Her interview begins with stories of a strong sense of right and wrong in her early years. She goes on to share her rather traumatic experience of being isolated by fellow classmates during law school. Nonetheless, she and her fellow African American students (there were only four in her class) supported one another, even advocating for increased diversity among students and faculty at the law school.
As the interview progresses, Judge Olds describes her highly successful career. She touches on rejoining the law school community after many years feeling unable to return. Judge Olds describes her “Tell it to the Judge” program, about how judges are trained, what they can do to be better. She discusses advice for her younger self, and for the law school now. She finishes the interview on a hopeful note, describing the law school today as a much better institution in terms of diversity and priorities.
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An Interview with David Pugh
David Pugh and Mary Gorham
"I got to develop that, that passion for your job. And William & Mary indirectly helped me with that because I saw professors who had a passion for teaching and I say doggone, they’re here at the law school they have a passion. Well, I should have a passion if I’m going to be a lawyer." -- David Pugh
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Judge David Pugh was interviewed on February 13, 2025, in the William & Mary Media Center’s Production Studio. He begins the interview by describing his first experiences learning about the law as a person of color. Judge Pugh then reflects on his service in the US Army in Vietnam and how it motivated him to pursue law school as soon as he could. He recounts the process of being admitted to William & Mary Law School and his time as a student, including the friends and mentors that he met, but emphasizes that he got the most enjoyment out of practicing and being on the bench. He then highlights a few remarkable moments during his time as a litigator, as well as the tough decision-making he faced as a judge. Finally, he stresses the need for community and passion for your work to make an impact in the legal field.
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An Interview with W. Taylor Reveley, III (part one)
W. Taylor Reveley III and Brendan Clark
"You need to understand your history, particularly if it has glorious, galvanizing, splendid elements." -- Taylor Reveley
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The first part of Reveley’s oral history took place in the Reeder Media Center in the Swem Library at William & Mary on November 30, 2023. Reveley began by discussing the circumstances of his arrival at the law school in 1998. Additionally, Reveley addressed deficiencies in buildings, in faculty and staff, difficulties with reputation and publicity, and the law school’s relationship to the main campus. The concept of the Citizen Lawyer was also extensively addressed as was the placement of the statutes of John Marshall and George Wythe in front of the law school.
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An Interview with W. Taylor Reveley, III (part two)
W. Taylor Reveley III and Brendan Clark
"If you have really able, really hard working people of character and integrity, and commitment and ambition, you can do marvelous things..." -- Taylor Reveley
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The second part of Reveley’s oral history, structured around his 2007 Memorandum on the State of the Law School, took place in the Reeder Media Center in the Swem Library at William & Mary on February 15, 2024. The second part focused on the categories of “things physical,” “things human,” “things programmatic,” “things financial,” and “things spiritual.” Topics addressed in “things physical” included Reveley’s work on capital improvements to the McGlothlin Courtroom and the North Wing as well as renovations to the law library as well as improvements to the lobby. “Things human” addressed the growth in class size and the improvement in student quality as well as the growth of tenure track faculty and the expansion of reunion efforts. “Things programmatic” addressed improvements to Courtroom 21 and court technology as well as the development of new centers and groups. “Things financial” addressed the increasing operational budget and the growth of the endowment. Finally, “things spiritual” addressed the rebuttal of Harvard’s claim to being the oldest law school and the growth of institutional pride.
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An Interview with Lorrie Sinclair Taylor
Lorrie Sinclair Taylor and Mary Gorham
"I would travel back to Northern Virginia almost every week after legal skills on Friday, until I really developed the friendships and the family in my Black Law Students Association community. And that's what kept me here. We just did things together. We ate dinner together, we made community meals together, we hung out, we did social activities, and I met my husband here... he introduced me to a lot of the local things, which made me appreciate my time here at William & Mary even more." -- Lorrie Sinclair Taylor
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Judge Lorrie Sinclair Taylor was interviewed on April 19th, 2025, in the William & Mary Media Center’s Production Studio. She begins the interview by talking about her large family of Jamaican immigrants, of which she is the youngest, and how they influenced her decision to practice law. Judge Sinclair Taylor then goes on to recount how she ended up in Virginia at George Mason for undergraduate and William & Mary for law school, where she connected with the Black Law Student’s Association and met close friends and mentors. She then discusses her work as a practicing attorney, serving as both a prosecutor and private practice attorney in Virginia before deciding to apply for the bench. Judge Sinclair Taylor then reflects on the feeling and history behind her being the first Black judge in the 20th Judicial Circuit of Virginia, and what that means to her and others who look up to her. She finishes the interview talking about the importance of having mentorship and support, and shares love for her family who has stood by her side.
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An Interview with Margaret Spencer
Margaret Spencer and Mary Gorham
I enjoyed talking to the other professors about what's new, what's going to happen in the future, where are we now, what changes should we make? Why should we make these changes? What laws that existed in the past need to be changed? We talked about innovative theories and that's what I enjoyed most, I think, about my experience with my colleagues at William & Mary. They were always open, always objective, and always supportive. -- Margaret Spencer
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Judge Margaret Spencer was interviewed on March 27th, 2025, in the William & Mary Media Center’s Production Studio. She begins the interview by explaining that she grew up with no interest in the legal field, but with a passion for helping others and serving the community. Judge Spencer then reflects on her time at law school at the University of Virginia (UVA) where she lived on campus and was one of only a few African American students, and how she helped start the Black Law Students Association at UVA. She then recounts her time working for Legal Aid and the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC), again feeling isolation from the people around her, but thriving in her ability to assist and care for others through her legal work. She then moves on to discuss her time at William & Mary Law School as a professor, connecting with students and faculty to build ideas and further service to the community. Judge Spencer then transitions to speak about her time as a judge, emphasizing her work as it relates to treatment courts which she still oversees today.
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An Interview with Bryant L. Sugg (part one)
Bryant L. Sugg and Daniella Relvas-Veliadis
"Rather than thinking of it, of any of this starting with me, it always, to me, goes back to my father... When he said he wanted to go to law school, they told him he was crazy. Because he is in the 50s. Before even the civil rights movement and all that, when I was a baby... [T]hrough my father, myself, and my nephew, we're the only three generations of African American legacy judges, period, the end. It just hasn't happened in the history of the country, from what I've been told... I always, like I said, I look to my father as the one who started that, based on his dream and him not accepting that he wasn't going to be able to make it. And he did." -- Bryant Sugg
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In this oral history, dated March 19, 2025, the Honorable Judge Bryant L. Sugg gives us an overview of his life, time at William & Mary Law School, and decades-long career as a Virginia judge. We begin with a discussion about his upbringing and how his father, the late Honorable Irvin Douglas Sugg, Sr., influenced his career path. From the law school, Judge Sugg shares stories about playing flag football with professors, memories of getting cold-called in class, and his reputation as a “lobby lizard.” From there, he discusses his “friendly rivalry” with his nephew, the Honorable David J. Whitted, and the legacy Judge Sugg started at the law school, with three generations of his family attending.
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An Interview with Bryant L. Sugg (part two)
Bryant L. Sugg and Daniella Relvas-Veliadis
"Becoming a judge was a big [achievement]. I mean, I love that. But see, I think, you talk to anybody who really knows me and it's: judge is what I do. But judge isn't who I am." --Bryant Sugg
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In this oral history, dated March 19, 2025, the Honorable Judge Bryant L. Sugg gives us an overview of his life, time at William & Mary Law School, and decades-long career as a Virginia judge. We begin with a discussion about his upbringing and how his father, the late Honorable Irvin Douglas Sugg, Sr., influenced his career path. From the law school, Judge Sugg shares stories about playing flag football with professors, memories of getting cold-called in class, and his reputation as a “lobby lizard.” From there, he discusses his “friendly rivalry” with his nephew, the Honorable David J. Whitted, and the legacy Judge Sugg started at the law school, with three generations of his family attending.
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An Interview with Timothy J. Sullivan
Timothy J. Sullivan and Brendan Clark
"If you know from whence we came, let's just say from 1920, to where we are today, it's an extraordinary story." -- Tim Sullivan.
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The interview of Timothy J. Sullivan, Dean Emeritus of William & Mary Law School and President Emeritus of the College of William & Mary in Virginia, occurred on Tuesday, March 28, 2023, from approximately 2:00 P.M. to 3:00 P.M. in the Media Center of Swem Library. The interview concerned Timothy Sullivan’s tenure at the law school, beginning with his time as a member of the faculty in the early 1970s and continuing to the conclusion of his time as dean of from 1985 to 1992.
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An Interview with Gloria Todd
Gloria Todd and Daniella Relvas-Veliadis
"The paperwork and the different percentages that you have to get in order to get your full benefits were very challenging. He was just about to give up when this clinic [Veterans Benefits Clinic] was developed... So if it wasn't for Stacey-Rae, he probably wouldn't have been around as long as he did. So, yeah. Changed our lives, actually." -- Gloria Todd, on her husband as the clinic's first client
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In this oral history, dated February 26, 2025, Gloria Todd gives us an overview of her 34 years of service at William & Mary Law School. The subjects range from a day in her life as the law school’s office manager, her husband Gene’s experience as the Puller Veterans Benefits Clinic’s first client, and how Todd helped students evacuate during a fire at the law school in 2016. We hear anecdotes about Todd’s peers in the administration and learn how processes like administering exams and processing human resources changed at the law school over the years. Throughout the interview, Todd emphasizes her passion for working with students—from the day of their first exam to the day of their commencement ceremony.
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An Interview with J. R. Zepkin
J. R. Zepkin and Timothy J. Sullivan
"But it's [being a judge] not anywhere near the satisfaction of teaching and seeing these folks getting the material and taking the bar exam and passing and going out. I mean, it's one of those gifts that keeps giving as you see them being successful out there." -- J. R. Zepkin
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J.R. Zepkin was interviewed on February 22, 2024 in the production studio of William & Mary’s Media Center. He describes moving from Newport News, VA to undergrad at Duke University before switching to William & Mary to pursue law. Zepkin describes the facilities, faculty, and small student body at the law school in the 1960s. He discusses the Williamsburg bar and practicing after graduation. Zepkin then reflects on his time as a judge before turning to his teaching career and the changes in the law school and its community through the years.